08 - Living in a Plastic World

The amount of packaging waste that litters our environment continues to rise, and there has never been a greater need, first and foremost, for the circularity of post-consumer waste. In the latest episode of TOMRA Talks Circular, we talk to Laszlo Szekely, TOMRA’s Head of Plastics Applications, about how much plastic is in post-consumer waste streams, and the importance of collecting, sorting, and recycling these materials, among other things.

Listen to the episode below, or use your favourite platform (Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcasts)

Show Notes

•    How much plastic is in post-consumer waste streams? [01:29]

•    Explanation of municipal solid waste [02:25]

•    Most valuable development in the last decade [03:34]

•    Why is so much plastic not being recycled? [05:31]

•    Technical challenges in mixed waste sorting [09:04]

•    Differentiating plastic from other waste using technology [11:05]

•    Processes required to close the loop of plastics [12:56]

•    Which regions have leapfrog opportunities? [16:49]

•    The most important topic for circularity [19:19]

•    How feasible is a truly circular economy? [24:20]

•    Final thoughts [25:46]

Transcript

Mithu: Welcome to TOMRA Talks Circular, where we explore how businesses, municipalities, and governments are collaborating towards a circular economy. 

Mithu: If you've been following this podcast series, you've heard me emphasize the urgency to step up on action in the fight against climate change. And of course, increasingly, we see the stakeholders coming together to work towards real solutions on the ground, while governments, NGOs, and other bodies work to get the right framework in place, such as binding legislation, directives, and extended producer responsibility, just to name a few. And while it's clear that materials across the board, such as wood, textiles, metals, must also remain in the cycle if they used climate targets are to be achieved by 2050. Perhaps the biggest challenge and the one getting the most attention is plastic waste. My name is Mithu Mohren and joining me today is László Székely, TOMRA's one and only VP head of Plastic Applications. László, welcome to the program. 

László: Thank you, Mithu.

Mithu: László, let's get started with the basics. Just how much plastic is in post-consumer waste streams?

László: Oh, that's a good question. So, depending on the statistics for sure. Slightly different data are circulating. The world population generates around 2.1 billion (metric) tons of MSW every year. We have some numbers at around 12 up to 15% of this amount is plastic waste. So, if we do the math that we then we have around 250 million (metric) tons of plastic in this MSW. Of course, different numbers and different factors have an important role like region, culture, consumption, behavior, waste collection system and so on. So, in some area we have more plastic, in some area less plastic. But if we take in consideration that an average of 12%, that's already a lot.

Mithu: There is a lot and then it's material, valuable material that we should be getting to. Can you explain what MSW is?

László: Yeah. MSW is basically the short name of of municipal solid waste. That means it's actually a mixed waste collection. It could be everything inside, it could be packaging, it could be organic, it could be plastic or whatever. So this is if we take as an example, Germany, we have the separate collection, which is mainly a packaging material, and then we have the black bin, which is basically the everything else … or should be everything else than packaging. But of course in the reality looks a little bit different that you will have packaging material in the separate collection and you will have packaging material in the municipal solid waste … so in the black bin. But of course, in some areas you have just one bin, which collects everything and this is MSW, municipal solid waste. 

Mithu: You've been in this industry for a while, I think ten years or so?

László: Yes, in February it was ten years.

Mithu: Wow. Long time you've been observing plastic sorting and recycling during this time. In these ten years, what's been the most valuable development so far?

László: Progress has been made in many senses. Not only the technology for the recycling of plastics like sorting, washing, extrusion, and so on has developed further. But also the packaging and petrochemical industry contributes. So, design for recycling is becoming more and more important. The demand for PCR material is increasing. We see that petrochemical companies. 

Mithu: I'm sorry, László, for the PCR. Perhaps you can explain?

László: Post-consumer recycled material.

Mithu: Okay, thanks.

László: Petrochemical companies are investing in recycling. So we are moving in the right direction, but with small steps and there is still work to be done. But if I compare the now today to ten years ago: at that time it was impossible to get on one table … the petrochemical companies, the packaging, the brand owner, the recycling companies, waste management companies. So it was almost impossible. Nowadays this is totally normal, which is a good sign.

Mithu: So, it's the collaboration. It sounds like everyone has realized we need to work together if we are to get the job done as quickly as possible?

László: Exactly. Each … every industry is part of this loop. And if we don't work together, it will not work. So, if one industry is not doing his homework, the whole loop will not work. And fortunately, this is working quite well. But the steps are small.

Mithu: Okay. And one of those partners or one of those parties, I guess, might be the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, who has been doing work and bringing parties together for quite some time now. According to the Ellen MacArthur Foundation. Approximately 14% of plastics are actually collected for recycling a number. That really hasn't changed, if I'm correct, since 2014. And please correct me if I'm wrong there. TOMRA has pledged to enable collection of 40% of all post-consumer plastic packaging for recycling by 2030. That's a pretty big jump and a very short period. What plastics are still slipping efficient collection? And why? If there's anything out there?

László: Yeah, that's a good question. So basically, the amount of waste is increasing each every year. If you take the 40%, actually the amount is bigger and bigger every year … which is recycled … but the percentage stays the same. On the other hand, some of the plastics are end up in the wrong being so are not collected for recycling. So, they end up in, let's say, in landfills or in incinerators. And of course …

Mithu: Even with separate collection, it's landing. This is what you're saying in the wrong bin, in areas in regions where there is separate collection of this material, it's still not necessarily landing up where it should.

László: That's correct. So even in the countries where we have a separate collection and we have MSW bin some of the plastic, not just packaging, but generally ends up in the … let's call it wrong bin … which is not collected for recycling, and this plastic and valuable material is burned. So that means if we want to increase the recycling rates, then we have to take a look also to this material. In general, it's an MSW. And in this material, it's also a lot of plastic inside. So, we have to start to sort and collect for recycling, not just a separate collection, collected material, but also the MSW bins. And this, of course, the government and the companies are doing a lot of work to convince the people to put the packaging in the right in the separate collection. But of course, this is not always happening. And if we realize that that we cannot convince the people or some of them are not really realizing what they are doing, then we have to take this material as well and sort it for recycling. 

Mithu: Okay. So there's a lot of potential there.

László: And in my opinion, if we will not sort these waste streams … so the household waste streams … we will not be able to achieve the recycling rates from 2030, 2050 and so on. 

Mithu: Okay. So, there's a couple of issues we won't be able to at least in the EU where there are rates, we won't be able to reach them. And secondly, we're actually losing valuable material, which makes us rely more heavily on fossil fuels. So, there's two, two things that we can we can work towards.

In this program, we've talked a few times about TOMRA’s Holistic Resource Systems, which includes DRS or deposit return systems, a separate source collections and mixed waste sorting that you've also mentioned them. So, in a sense, it's first about collecting the material in an organized way so that we can then sort and recycle at high quality levels, which is what the market needs. 

Sorting different waste streams with the goal of closing the loop, however, that requires technical expertise. If we say the last one, so mixed waste sorting and this is the one that you've been talking about, László, what would you say are the technical challenges in recovering the plastics from that particular waste stream?

László: Yeah, that's also a good question. In my opinion, the biggest challenge is to collect the waste. To establish a functioning waste collection worldwide. Which is not normal. So, of course, in Europe we have in each and every country a waste collection system. If it's just one collection or it's a separate collection and the mixed waste. That's another topic. But once the waste is collected, it can be treated or sorted with the existing technology. If I recover, for example, a shampoo bottle from the separate collected waste or from the municipal solid waste … it makes no difference. And there are some rumors in the market … or were some rumors in the market … that plastics from mixed waste is not recyclable, which is not true. It is recyclable. With the existing technology, you can recover it for recycling. You can recycle it as well, like from different waste streams. And we should do this definitely. The technical part of the separate collected waste sorting facility or a mixed waste sorting facility, it's quite similar. It's still screening, metal separation, optical sorting, and so on. [Mithu: Okay, so…] This is done already in many countries. So, we should make sure that we have a waste collection worldwide and we take care of this collected (material). 

Mithu: Okay, so we just need to get to it. The technology exists. You just mentioned optical sorters. How can you differentiate between the different types of material or plastics in the streams?

László: We are using advanced sensor-based sorting technologies to sort different waste or material streams. Detection techniques like near-infrared, so NIR, or visual spectrometer, which is the way this makes it possible to distinguish between different polymers like polyethylene, polypropylene, PVC, polyurethane and so on. Of course, also different materials like paper and beverage cartons and so on. So, everything which you will find in the waste. And with this technology or even capability to distinguish not just the material, but also the color. If the customer or the company wants to sort, let's say white HDPE, then it is possible. Or if they want a favorite red or blue or whatever. It is possible. 

Mithu: Okay. So everything is possible. If I have, just have to say … [laughs]

László: From the technical point of view, everything is possible. It just needs to be done. And in many, many new facilities, this is happening already. 

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Mithu: You've already touched on this a little bit. This is really getting to the material, collecting the material. And as we've said, the technology exists today. It's possible today to actually collect more material in an organized fashion. But once we have the material, we need to do something to close the loop. If we focus on plastics, what technology exists today to help us get there, and maybe I can just dovetail on that quickly. If the material if the technology exists today, why haven't we been doing it? Why isn't there more of this in place?

László: In order to close the loop, we need high quality results and even more important, a constant quality for the industry. And in order to achieve this quality, the material has to go through a more complex recycling process. So the classic recycling process, or we call it open loop recycling like basic presorting, old washing and extrusion is technologically not capable to produce the needed quality. 

When we when we say close loop, that means as an example, take a shampoo bottle and bring it back in the shampoo bottle. If this shampoo bottle is a red one or a white one, you need the same color. The typical recycling process from the past was: just take the plastic, wash it, and produce a dark gray, even black recyclate. So, you cannot take this recipe and produce a white bottle out of it or a red one. So that's why when I say more a more complex process, that means you need a presorting not just by material but also color. 

Then in order to get the really clean material of flake or palette later on, you need a hot washing step instead of old washing in order to set up to remove the glue and the print and everything. And then you want to have a flake which has a neutral smell. So, it's not smells like a specific shampoo. That means in the process you need the deodorization step. And then of course at the end … it is the extrusion step. And with this process, which is more complex than the other one, you are able to produce this quality. 

And if you talk to the brand owners and packaging companies … packaging producing companies … this is what they want. They want wide and transparent material. And that's why it's so technically it's possible. Also, financially it's doable. But at the moment, this kind of advanced mechanical recycling plants are missing. There are a couple of them already who invested in in a new plant or upgraded older plants. 

Mithu: But where are those?

László: We have, for example, in the Netherlands one … we have in Germany, one. So, they are coming. But of course, the industry was focused … especially when we talk about polyolefins … the industry was focused on these grayish black recyclates which were used for lower quality products. 

We know from the PET recycling that this is possible. PET recycling is bottle to bottle processing … it's working since decades. In that industry, they are sorting by color and they are hot washing since decades but everything else besides all the Polyolefins and PS and so on, it was not really done. And this is coming now because the market needs these materials. 

Mithu: Okay. Promising words: This is coming now. So that's that's good. Here in Europe, generally, we like to think we're leading the way when it comes to transformation, to a circular economy. And I think until now, that's been the case. 

I'm wondering … in other regions … as they observe what's going on here and learning what works in terms of technology, what works in terms of legislation, what frameworks are needed and all of that. Do you see potential that some of these regions, let's say, in Asia or even the Americas, that they might actually leapfrog the EU?

László: I hope so. I hope that the rest of the world will follow Europe, or especially the European goals. After all, the plastic issue is not a local challenge. So, we will not solve the problem just in Europe. We need to focus worldwide. In this and in this matter, we should not only be role models, but should cooperate and help. 

We should develop possibilities together that can be implemented for different regions, because not every measure … what works well in Europe will also work worldwide. So a system which is working quite well in Europe, for example, doesn't mean that it will work in Thailand or Malaysia or in the US. So, we have to focus what what's in that region and what can we do to improve the situation. And in many, many parts of the world, we could start by implementing a waste collection system. 

Mithu: Which goes back to the Holistic Resource System, which is a model, if I understand correctly, that was developed with TOMRA and Eunomia. It's a model that can be used and adjusted and localized to fit these local conditions that you've mentioned.

László: Exactly. In Europe, we banned landfilling … so we don't put the waste in landfill anymore because we have alternatives. We have recycling or sorting facilities; we have incineration and so on. But all this, you cannot just copy and paste because it probably in another region they just have landfilling, but they don't have incineration. Som if you ban landfilling, you still have the waste. You have to start somewhere. And that's why we are working on different continents … not just in Europe … and analyze the local situation and try to find solutions to improve the problems. 

Mithu: So in this episode we focused a lot on the technical and on collaboration. On past episodes, we've talked a lot about the political about extended producer responsibility and and generally about legislation that's coming into place, especially in the EU. In your opinion, László, having been at this for for ten years or so, what's the most important issue, the most important topic when we need to move towards a circular economy as quickly as possible?

László: I don't know if I understood correctly the questions, but the important point is that the pressure is coming from the consumer. So, the consumer push is pushing the industry to use more recycled material and to design the packaging more environmentally friendly and so on. Assume the industry is using recycled material. The industry needs to communicate to the consumer that, by the way, we are using 50%, 70% or whatever, how much post-consumer (plastic). 

It could be that the packaging is a little bit different than the original one, which is 100% virgin material but that doesn't mean that the product is less has a lower quality. It's just recycled material. And this needs to be communicated. And the consumer needs to be informed about this. 

And I think this this this is a big fear what companies big brand owners have … that if they're using a certain amount of it and the packaging probably it's not snow white anymore that the customer will say, oh, that's probably a lower quality than before and this is not true. 

So, if we take as an example, paper. People many years back when I was a child .. the paper industry already used recyclate, so recycled paper. And of course, it was not white completely. It has a kind of touch … grade touch [Mithu: Yeah, exactly.] And the consumer accepted completely because they knew, okay, they did something for the environment. 

It doesn't mean that the newspaper is lower quality just because it's not completely white anymore. It's just because they use recyclates, recycled paper in that case, but the product, it's the same. And I think this is missing right now because the technology is there … so we are capable to do recycling. The legislation is there. The politics is pushing this, the industry is pushing this. And the only feedback I get is that we need to check how we use recyclates because we want to avoid … to change a little bit the shape or the color of the of the packaging. I think this this is an important point. 

Mithu: And as I'm listening to you, László, I wonder … if we have to, when we are able to, to help the customer or consumer understand what this means. I could imagine once that understanding is there, that greenwashing will no longer be an issue because the consumer understands.

László: Yes, definitely. So, I think more presentations and more open communication with the consumer would help. The majority of the industries or the companies are doing … or they are changing something in their production, not just because of greenwashing anymore. More because they really care now, and they want to show that they can do something for the environment. But this is these are steps which will not happen overnight. Some cases are more more easy to change. And in some some cases … when we when we take as an example the food packaging or packaging for medicine … in this case, it's still it's called a taboo or not possible to use recycled content from polyolefins, for example. Because they are some regulations which will … stop or not allow to use it. But I think if we continue to work on this and we will find some, some solutions to use this material also in other industries and all the packaging, then, then it will work. 

Mithu: You make it sound so easy. You make it sound like and I guess the technology is there, everyone is moving in the right direction. But let's be realistic. How feasible do you think it is to get to a circular economy … a truly circular economy?

László: To be honest, I don't think that we will replace 100% of the firgin material. So we should stay realistic. I'm not an optimistic person or a pessimistic … I'm more realistic. In some of the cases, we will achieve some good results. So, we will be able to close the loop. But of course, in some of the cases, it's not possible. 

And then we have to do our best … not to stop working on solutions. Because if we see in each and every opportunity a problem, then it will be an issue. If we see in each and every problem a solution, then we will continue to develop the technology and also the politics will continue to commit legislations. But it will take ten years … 20 years … I don't know. I cannot tell you. I can tell you that I'm working on this since ten years and I will continue to work on this. 

Mithu: Okay. That sounds like a fair and realistic answer. So, thank you for that. One last question, László. You have two beautiful children. Let's look ten years down the road and let's say they ask you: “Papa, what did you do to make this world a better place?” [László: laughs] How do you answer that question? I hope my question I hope my children never asked me this [László: laughs]. But how will you answer that?

László: That's a really, really good one. Yeah, what should I say? Probably I will tell them: “Kids, I spent the last 20 years of my life in the waste industry trying to solve the waste issue or a plastic waste issue. And since ten years, I still have to work another 20, I will still continue to work on that.” But I can tell you already that in in the school of where my son is going, I'm already the good guy. So, I belong to the to the parents, which are in the good team.

Mithu: I have no doubt. I have absolutely no doubt. Thank you, László, for your time and for your insights and helping us better understand how to get to a circular economy.

László: Thank you, Mithu, for the invitation and for the nice discussion. Bye bye. 

Mithu: Bye bye.

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